56 Shasta springs and such

[chukar52]

I'm the new owner of a wonderful 56 Shasta 1500. Planning to raise same a bit by putting axel under springs and while I'm at it perhaps change out springs for new. Currently this trailer has a 1-1/2" axel and 30 inch (eye to eye) springs with 7 leaves. Can someone confirm this combination as original equipment? I'm also having a tough time finding 30 inch springs. Any help would be appreciated greatly. Thanks so much!

[Bob]

Hi, I can't verify originality, my '56 1500 has 7 leaf springs but they've sagged to 30.5" The shackle hangers have angled to the rear. Mine has a 1.5" square tube axle as well.
Does yours have brakes and what size rims are on it?

[universalexports]

here is a thread I done with pics when flipping my axles, might not be any help, but it might give you an idea as to the three different ride heights I came up with. vintageshasta.proboards.com/thread/3262/working-on-flipping-axles

[bigbill]

****Dangerous idea**** Do not flip your trailer axle to raise the trailer height these axles were designed to be used in the dropped position to remove part of the twisting load from the springs. When you flip them over you increase the twisting force that is being applied to the springs and the u bolts every time you hit a bump or apply the trailer brakes. This extra load can cause your springs to break. If one side breaks at 50 mph this could cause a total loss of control, with tragic results. To change the trailer height the three better safer ways are 1. new springs more arch. 2. a straight axle mounted over or under your springs. 3. blocks between spring and axle this is the least desirable option but is better than flipping the axle. Be safe I don't want anything to happen to you or your family.

[chukar52]

My 1500 has 15" rims. I wasn't considering a "flip" of the axel, just placing it under the springs rather than its current over the springs position. Net change of about 3". Still looking for a spring source, and thanks for the info so far. Very helpful, just as I had expected from this great group of folks.

[Gone Kayaking]

Chukar52, I did exactly what you did. Many on this forum have done so. When I checked with the local trailer guy, he thought it was just fine. Big Bill, I'm sure you are correct that getting new springs and/or axle is best, but this does seem to be a fairly standard fix that folks do to take care of being able to get in and out of their and other driveways without bottoming out. I'd be interested in others opinions.

[bigbill]

For a simple demo take a length of wire bend it with a drop like your axle then support it on two items that allow to spin at each end (like two water glasses) and you will notice that the drop wants to go to the bottom position now try to stand it up with the drop inverted. Another example is if you are trying to loosen a rusty bolt and you get a wrench with a longer handle it is much easier to turn. Now think of your axle with a four inch drop flip it over and you have increased the leverage against the rotation where it is fasten to the springs and instead of near zero force even sitting parked you now have a constant load twisting on your springs being increased by the total weight of the trailer. now think about driving down the road and each bump you hit or each time you apply the brakes. Now have you ever seen a broken spring on something of course you have now why would you want to do something that severely increases that possibility. Next question if one side of your axle comes loose drops back lets that side of the trailer drop , the wheel hits the under side of the trailer at highway speeds and stops turning what do you think will happen? Do what you want it is your life and your family that you are putting in danger. I realize that these old trailers sit to low and drag causing damage but the solutions I offered can be done in the one to two hundred dollar range and a little labor. What does a funeral cost? I know many people that think texting and driving are ok but sometimes it isn't. What I an talking about is simple load stress engineering on steel and the loads you are changing.
As far as everyone is doing it, one of my friends brother in-law was an outspoken advocate for smoking a little "wild weed" it was harmless and everyone that is cool does it. Then one beautiful sunny afternoon he picked up his beautiful 5 year old daughter at preschool to take her to a Birthday party, he had a few joints earlier, miss judged the speed and distance of an on coming truck and we had a pleasure of attending the daughter's funeral. He wasn't hurt in the accident but he wishes everyday of the last thirty plus years he had been killed also. This is a free country do what you wish but I felt I had you give this warning.

[bigbill]

Placing the axle under or over the spring makes no difference on load it changes ride height and that is fine just don't rotate it 180 degrees.

[Gone Kayaking]

I was talking about mounting over or under the springs not flipping the axle (drop) as what I had done. As for the everyone doing comment.....what I meant really was that it had not been criticized as a solution by any members of the forum that I consider expert in these matters....

I understand your point, and am glad it was raised, and it makes sense. I'd still like to hear if any other members take issue with your physics lesson.

[universalexports]

I think the change in geometry would be minimal at best, I really dont think flipped, over/under axles will make a significant difference, I have a lot of practical experience in this area, I have modified, help modify and helped design several leaf spring set ups on drag cars, drag trucks etc. I have seen several vehicles with 3 inch lowering blocks, (about the same as flipping an axle) running the 1/4 mile in 10 seconds at 120+ miles per hour, with 1.51 second 0-60 MPH times, and never seen a failure, thats more pressure that hitting your breaks hard when pulling a camper, and that is with a +3000 pound vehicle.

I have cut my S-10 in half, and narrowed the frame 4 inches per side, removed all but the 1st and 3rd spring and went 11:21 in the quarter mile at 124 mph, with 2 inch lowering blocks, could flipping the axle cause an issue? it's always a possibility I guess. but I dont see an issue unless you have rusted wore out springs/bolts.

Have you ever seen a video of what causes wheel hop when spinning? this is caused by the spring twisting up from the torque of the motor, twisting until it is basically bending the wrong way, then unloading or springing back to it's original shape, this causes the wheel to hop or bounce really hard, this is far more strain on the suspension than you could ever exert pulling or braking when pulling a camper, and still the setups survive.

my BEAST!!! Widened wheel wells, narrowed frame and narrowed rear end, 383 stroker motor.



Narrowing my frame in my Garage, done everything from frame to motor completely by myself. my boys had no interest in a hotrod.

[chukar52]

So, it seems most everybody is OK with moving the axle under the springs (but not flipping it) for a 3 inch or so raise of the trailer. I've found some 30" springs rated at 1250 lbs each ( making the total 2500 lbs for like minded math wizards) . Does this seem adequate for a 1500lb dry weight trailer, or should I jump up to the almost twice the price 3000 lb rated set?
Thanks again to everyone.

[Bob]

SWAG Alert!!!
I don't know the empty weight of a '56 1500, but I'd guess that it isn't more than 1800 pounds - so with maybe 200 pounds of tongue weight, my weight on axle guess is down to 1600 pounds, leaving 900# max cargo. A heavier spring would give you more payload capacity and safety margin, but a harsher ride.
By the way, my axle is already overslung.

[bigbill]

Universalexports I also have over 50 years experience building cars, trucks, and trailers currently own a legal 1959 D/R and a chevy power 41 Plymouth with a 700R4, a 9" ford rear and four wheel disk brakes. Lowering blocks and position above or below the springs make no difference. What I am talking about is taking a dropped axle and rotating it 180 degrees is a no no. I bet if you have the experience you seem to have you wouldn't do that to one of your rods or race cars. In my years around NHRA tracks (since 1958)even in the days of high front gasers front ends were raised in many ways but nobody to my knowledge flipped a dropped axle upside down. I have seen excessive wheel hop break both springs and spit the rear end out from under the car causing a roll over.

[universalexports]

May 21, 2013 5:35:25 GMT -5 bigbill said:

Lowering blocks and position above or below the springs make no difference.

Sorry but I disagree with this statement, it makes all the difference, in fact it is the exact same as flipping an axle, you may be forgetting I am referencing a vehicle with power to the wheels, when the rear end turns the wheels, this creates torque that is transfered from the rearend to the springs, adding a block between the two creates a lever (just like a wrench on a nut), anyone with any drag racing practical experiance knows this. most use traction bars or cal-tracs to keep the wheel hop at bay. increasing the distance between the rear end and axle increases the torque multiplication in much the same way as flipping the axle would. make scense?

with all that said, and our two different views, with no clear answer it might be wise to error on the side of safty with this, I do agree it will add additional strain on the springs, (although I think they will handle it) my 1st Shasta deluxe was like that for years and years, then I lowered it. it was stupid high, either way better to be safe than sorry.

as for my truck I went with a Ford explored 8.8 rear end, you get big 31 spline axles, disk brakes a limited slip deff, 410 gears, for cheap, the explorer rear end has a short and long axle, chop the tube, cut out 3 inches install 2 short side exles and it fits nicely under an S-10, all for under $400.00, then I redrilled my axles and disk for a chevy bolt pattern so I could run all chevy wheels. cool huh.

[Gone Kayaking]

dry weight of 1956 1500 is 1480 lbs

[bigbill]

Yes when you add power to the wheels you are in a whole new world I was speaking about a non powered Trailer axle. My favorite set up for a powered axle is a four bar with adjustable coil overs. Choice with leaf springs is twin torque rods I never cared much for traction bars they have to much movement but they are cheap and simple to install and a ton better than nothing. 50 years ago they were the hot ticket. In the early 60s we raced a Pontiac that had a major traction problem so we took the springs apart and built new ones using 4 main leafs with the eyes cut off, rode a little stiff but solved the traction problem. Then for years built comp chassis with solid rear ends.

[Bob]

Hey chukar, did you ever get your new springs?

Anybody: As far as the weight of the camper, wouldn't you be able to subtract the weight of the axle, brakes/hub and wheels/tires from the equation since the springs aren't carrying that part of the total weight?

[chukar52]

Yes, I just finished the install yesterday. A local spring shop suggested that the (actually mismatched to boot) springs most likely had taken a set. They then measured the inside length center to eye, ( which meant that an unloaded spring would measure at about 25-1/2" eye to eye, if you ar using that measurement, which most pro spring shops don't.) I placed the axle under the springs, and am quite please with the trailer height, and a big bonus, I can actually change a tire without letting the air out, etc., etc., I opted for bronze bushings and zeroed (wet) shackle bolts, along with new u-bolts. Will test drive the first of next week. Also went with springs rated at 1250 lbs each, and am hoping for a slightly smoother ride. We'll see.