Flipping Trailers

[vikx]

Since there has been negativity on the board directed at trailer ads, I thought we needed a thread to address the issues. There are certainly unscrupulous sellers. Some buy every little trailer they can find, only to re-sell days later.

We all Flip trailers in a manner of speaking. You buy a trailer, play with it, repair it, decorate it. Perhaps you decide to sell it. That is defined as flipping. Certainly nothing wrong with that.

Honesty is the difference between a good seller and a wheeler dealer. An honest person represents the trailer as what it is and points out what repairs might be needed. There is no fast talk or belittling the actual damage a trailer might have.

The Wheeler, on the other hand, is in this solely to make money. They often have multiple trailers and flood the advertising sites with them. There are no repairs mentioned; just how easy it will be to do them: "just a weekend or so". Honesty flies out the window when there's money to be made...

I know from experience it takes a lot of time and money to restore a vintage trailer. Flippers help find the trailers and deserve something for their efforts, but not at the expense of a naive buyer. In other words, be honest. If the buyer can not/doesn't want to do repairs, then don't sell them a trailer that needs repairs.

The negativity comes from those of us who have first hand knowledge of trailers gone bad. From rot to broken frames, the prices are high and the values low.

Points for buyers:
1. Ask for pictures of any restoration work done.
2. Be suspicious of interior paint and covered up water damage.
3. Do not let a pretty paint job blind you.
4. If a seller has multiple ads, check for feedback and ask questions. An honest person will be happy to answer them.
5. Remember: ALL non-restored trailers need repairs. All of them.
6. You get what you pay for! Restored trailers start at $5000.

Points for sellers:
1. Represent your trailers HONESTLY.
2. Provide references and photos, especially if it's Restored.
3. If you are in the business of flipping trailers, say so.
4. Prices should be reasonable and fair.
5. Like what you sell.

To sum up, both buyers and sellers need to be informed. Do the HOMEWORK. Understanding what a vintage trailer might need is paramount when on the Hunt for a good one. An honest seller will always ask what you are looking for. Whether a restoration candidate or a frame up beauty, buy and sell what you like and what will work for you and the customer.

Thanks for reading this far. All comments are welcome as this is a work in progress. Looking forward to hearing from you all.

[Bob]

You might be a flipper if… your first post after joining the forum is an offer to sell your camper.

This forum is like an extended family related through vintage campers. We offer help and guidance to each other, and try to keep our kin from repeating any of our mistakes. I think that some of the comments that could be considered negative were meant to help the forum members - not to harm the seller.

[dawgpound]

Well said, guys!

[LittleVintageTrailer]

Very well said! I think there is definitely a difference between flippers that do it full-time or as a side business and those that resell their own trailers or happen across a trailer and buy it with the intent to resell it.

I am in the last category having come across a Compact by pure chance that was close by.

What bothers me most about some of the negativity is when a seller lists a trailer for sale and others gripe about the price. It's THEIR trailer, they can decide what they think it's worth and what they want to offer it for. It doesn't mean they will get that price but geez, it's up to them. If someone doesn't like the price, simply don't buy it. Why get online and trash the trailer verbally or the seller's price? It's just in bad taste IMO. Sure there are those trailers that we see now and then that look like they are held together with dental floss and we vocalize how we are perplexed about the price but I'm not talking about those. I'm talking about the ones that are overall solid but may have some things that need fixing. IMO unless it's a ground up documented restoration they ALL will need some work! Not to mention on going maintenance over the coming years. A trailer is an investment no matter how you look at it. The value of a trailer is what someone is willing to pay for it.

[schweetcruisers]

I got berated by some members(you know who you are) on here for stating the fact that a trailer was already listed here and on other sites. I never mentioned his price, I don't care, I even said the trailer was really nice, I don't even care that it was listed here, its just already had a thread on this site. Just stating facts.

[vikx]

I must admit it's hard to keep my mouth shut. (or fingers still)

Many of the comments (negative or not) are meant to educate fellow members, I think. When someone has first hand knowledge of a seller or experience on a type/condition of a trailer, it's only natural to say something. That can come out as negative.

I agree when we get a new member that *only* lists in the for sale section, it can be irritating. It is especially annoying to be invaded by a seller who has multiple trailers for sale all over the net. Some never even see them before reselling. To me, that's not a fair practice. How can they honestly represent what they have?

With vintage trailers getting more difficult to find all the time, the wheelers have jumped on the band wagon to make a quick buck. Makes it harder to find anything decent before they pounce...

Comments that can educate:

Price: Mid 60s trailers just don't go for as much as a 50s canned ham. Truly restored trailers bring more than a patch job. Yes, it is a seller's prerogative to price as they see fit. However, if the price is way off, is it negative to say so? Does it help a new buyer learn? Is it constructive criticism or bashing the seller?

Paint: Inside is not popular in the older units. The old Golden Glow is what most buyers want and paint can be very difficult to strip. It might mean hidden damage or it might be the owner's preference. It is certainly easier to paint than rebuild... That being said, some of the faux wood paneling is just plain ugly and NEEDS paint!

Water Damage: Means Rot. There's no other way to say it; no such thing as just a little. It is either there or not.

Roof Coatings: A prickly issue for sure. Most of the time, they are not applied correctly and fail, causing metal rot. A thick layer is a bad sign=Leaking. I leave it to the buyer to accept this or not. Me, I want a clean roof.

And Finally, Year: The older the better. Saving a 50s trailer will always bring more rewards than a 70s. Everyone is different. Some want bigger with a bathroom, others love the charm of a tiny canned ham.

It all boils down to the worth of a vintage trailer and the repairs than may (or may not) be needed. Sometime that trailer will be for sale again. If money is invested in a quality trailer, then the value can only go up. We will all be "previous owners" one day.

Maintenance is most important! Vintage trailers should be stored under cover, especially during the Winter months. Inspect every year for damage.

Thank you all for posting here, and contributing thoughts and ideas.

[Gone Kayaking]

VikX Thank you. This is a well stated set of principles for buyers and sellers.

I would add another proviso. If the seller does this as their business. Do engage them in a discussion about the work they do, ask them for pics of works in progress as VikX says, but also ask them why they do it, what their background is etc... Finally ask them if they can provide you with at least the contact info for their 3-5 most recent customers. And then DO contact those folks to see how things worked out. Any seller worth his or her salt will gladly do all of the above. If you don't have a good feeling in your gut....TRUST IT.

Most if not all 50 yr old trailers needing work and ongoing maintenance--newbies may not realize this. And no one should expect perfect--unless adjectives are used to lead the buy to believe this is true (words like Mint, Barn Find, Pristine, Fully Restored, Better than new etc... can be misleading and demand clear documentation). Buyers should expect honesty. When a seller says No Leaks...they do need to stand behind that and if asked about Rot they deserve a fair answer and if a seller says, the water damage on the panels is from a leak that was repaired...they are entitled to an honest and thorough answer as to what was done.

However, wrt price, I do think one of the useful things that this forum provides for folks to share their recommendations with potential buyers about what to offer to give advice to those just getting into the vintage trailer world. It is about the trailer and it's value not the person selling it. So rather than viewing it as trashing the price I more as a buyers forum--that said personal accusations about the sellers motivations imho are inappropriate. And if any of us have first hand knowledge of an unscrupulous seller, we owe it to other members of this forum to warn them by pm or a post that says I bought from this seller, important that you pm me for details.

[blu26ovl]

Thanks to Vikx for starting this subject and for a lot of good advise on buying and selling and for others chiming in. I've never put in in writing but I've thought to myself when I see one for sale that has a higher price than we normally see that it"s over priced. We're all probably guilty of that at some time. That being said, I have seen some that we over the top but like several have said a fair price is what is agreed between buyer and seller.

It would be nice if anyone looking found this or another forum before jumping into something they've vever done. There's so much info that can be had in advance. I read and looked here and other sites and googled anything I could find on vintage campers. You are right, if it's old and original it needs some amount of work. For any buyer know what you are capable of doing yourself or how much you'll have to farm out before buying. Educate yourself! I hate to see someone buy something that they were misled on how much work really needed to be done and then give up on their dream and sell out. I had an idea of what would be needed when I went to look and hopefully buy my compact but you can't see behind the walls and I found more rot than was visible from what I could see.
I'm a jack of all trades and a master of none but I felt comfortable enough to tackle the job and knew I had friends to call on if needed.
If you do it yourself take a lot of photo's of what you did and why. It may not seem important now but if you ever sell, having photo's to document your work could be the difference in hundreds or even thousands of dollars in your sell. As Vikx and others have said a well documented restored trailer can fetch a nice price.

[vikx]

Thanks for more ideas and good ones too! I think eventually it would be nice to compile this into one article for out newbie friends. It will remain here as well. All these heads are so much better than one...

[mamasherb]

Very helpful! Thanks to all of you.

[vikx]

This is a positive thread! It is looking to inform without bashing.

I will say it is difficult not to say what you think when you have experienced what some of us have. Discovering the back end of your (great condition!) trailer totally rotted out is an eye opener for sure.

The young man who thought his trailer was 90% restored comes to mind as well. The responses were kind but it was pointed out that "paint" and new flooring didn't a restoration make...

It makes people defensive to be criticized. Prices are what they are. I try to ask questions before judging. Once a seller is angry, they are certainly not going to give us information on the trailer.

A learning experience for us all.

One last thing: There are trolls pretending to want to buy. They are looking for email addresses and then sell to scammers/spammers. Beware. Yup, they got me...

[lamacki1]

Thanks, Vikx, for starting this thread. The only thing I sort of have a different take on is number 6 on your list of points for buyers. While I think that a restored trailer is fairly priced starting at $5,000 the problem is the actual definition of 'restored'. I've seen trailers priced over that amount - going toward the $6,000 or higher mark that have just left me saying, "really" Many of them were more of the 'refurbished' variety.

I think what we need is some clearer definitions of what these terms mean - although the scrupulous sellers already know and the ones that aren't won't care.

I'm still trailer-less. Sigh. Too picky?

[mary1960]

I was one of the ones questioning the price of a later model camper ... I feel bad that people considered me picking on the seller but I would hate for someone who is desperate for a vintage camper to pay more than it's worth on the word of someone over the internet.

As you all know (probably too well) I was taken big time by my own fault ... I bought into the "cuteness" factor of a canned ham and the fact that my husband thought he could rebuild it. I've lost nearly $3000 in vintage campers since I joined sisters on the fly back in 2009 so I feel qualified to state to new people to please research carefully and DO NOT get taken in by cute!!! If I can save one person from the heartache of buying a mistake, then everything I've gone through will be sorta-kinda worth it.

The price to rebuild a 10' vintage camper is roughly $7000. That's a basic interior rebuild, new wiring, new propane, insulation, walls, cabinets and bed. This was quoted to me by 2 totally separate individuals ... most of that was labor cost. The cost of materials is roughly $3500 not including appliances. I'm in the midwest so it could be more depending on where you are.

Hope that helps! If this doesn't belong in this thread, feel free to move it. Thanks Vikx for starting these interesting and informative threads!

[LittleVintageTrailer]

I think educating buyers is a good thing for sure, if done in a manner such as you've done here Vikx.

I think it's important for anyone looking to buy a vintage 50+ year old trailer to take the time to know what they are getting into. IMO, anything short of a fully documented ground up restoration IS GOING TO REQUIRE some work. If not right off the bat, it will at some point and I think that some buyers don't understand that fully. I think many feel they pay the money and expect perfection. Most of the time that is not the case.

I sort of equate vintage trailers like vintage cars. I have had 60's cars over the years and they can nickle and dime you for as long you own them. Vintage cars can be an expensive hobby and so can vintage trailers. Especially if you aren't knowledgable and know how to fix stuff yourself. So if buyers go into buying a vintage trailer with the knowledge that there can be unseen surprises or fixes required or needed down the road I think they will be much better prepared.

Lamacki1, This is how I view the definitions.

Restored: A full ground up restoration.
Renovated: Areas of concern fixed or replaced (replacing birch, new flooring, roof vent, etc.,)
Refurbished: Painted and decorated. This being the least of the 3 and the one you'd have to watch out for and really do your due diligence when inspecting the trailer.

The problem is that some sellers use the wrong terminology when listing a trailer for sale. For example, a trailer they "renovated" and fixed some things on, they may list as "restored". So it's important for a buyer to know the difference. Bottom line is, if it's not a documented ground up restoration then you can likely count on it needing some repairs of some kind, at some point.

I'd recommend doing a thorough inspection of any trailer you want to buy. Going through it completely and then you can decide if the things that need repaired are within your comfort zone (and price range for that particular trailer).

[offspringin]

this is a great thread and should be part of the must read before purchasing a trailer info.

[vikx]

RESTORED means a full restoration. EVERYTHING is fixed and in working order. There are different methods on doing this:

My Shasta Deluxe is a case in point. I consider it a frame up but the body did not come off the frame... Not by choice, but the PO had removed all of the interior paneling in prep for repairs. I lifted front and rear skins, and removed the lower siding, which allowed complete repairs of the skirts, front and rear. The previous PO had replace the roof metal and I could see the edge wood was in good condition in that area. Every inch of the trailer was inspected and repaired as necessary. I have confidence that it is as good as it can be.

My 53 Hanson was a complete blood, sweat and tears frame up. Unfortunately my first. It took 4 years...A true labor of love. And yes, it's still home with me.

Definitions matter but there will always be sellers claiming what we know to be untrue. The best (and least confrontational) thing to do is ask pertinent questions. All vintage trailers will have flaws. Some consider dents to be beauty marks, a few dings or odd holes inside: character!

Thank you again, this is so much better than expected!!!

lamackie: not too picky, just careful.
Mary1960: You're a keeper, as is your post.

[mamasherb]

Re: "If I can save one person from the heartache of buying a mistake, then everything I've gone through will be sorta-kinda worth it." Mary, the night before we ALMOST bought a trailer that would have ended up being beyond our means, I stayed up into the wee hours reading your blog. After reading about your experiences, I decided to pass. The trailer we bought may turn out to be beyond our means as well, but thanks to you, Vik, and others here, we bought it knowing what we were in for!

[deeanna]

I am a newbie and so appreciate the info listed here and on the rest of this site. Unless I have missed it, which is quite possible, I would love to see a discussion about suggestions for who to use when purchasing a vintage trailer and who to use for restorations. We do not have the knowledge or experience to do the work ourself. We are taking our time and reading everything you all post in an effort to educate our selves as much as possible before jumping head first. Thanks again for your posts and words of wisdom. Your knowledge is most appreciated!

[thumbelina]

Again, another great post to read to educate this Oregon wannabeeee glamper. This community is driving a loyalty for me to the Shasta. The girl must have wings. Yet I have this feeling that if I follow common sense, I can get SOB, cut my teeth, meet some people over a year and venture into the larger investment. I feel like the cowardly lion seeking courage to make the first step.

[vikx]

There is now discussion that "restored" means back to original, using period correct paneling and hardware, original appliances and in almost museum condition. I'm not sure I agree, but am hesitating to use the word restored these days. Rebuilt might better describe my trailers. I take liberties.

[Gone Kayaking]

Cool bottle cap and spot on. I have been referring to mine as rebuilt...or maybe rebuilt and upgraded.
Restored to me would also mean no non period electronics (eg flat screens etc) LED lights, and ice box not an electric fridge etc....

[Hamlet]

Hamlet is definitely rebuilt. I sure don't want to give up my hot shower and extra storage. Oh, and that extra few inches of height at the front.

[mobiltec]

Feb 26, 2012 22:58:14 GMT -5 offspringin said:

this is a great thread and should be part of the must read before purchasing a trailer info.

I just sent it to one of my viewers who is looking to purchase a vintage trailer in FLA. She should be registering here soon.

My very humble opinion on the difference between the term "restored" and "rebuilt"... One is a living antique, and the other is a replica. It's that simple.