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Post by swirlygirls on Jan 13, 2013 8:05:31 GMT -5
Thanks for your answers to my "trim" question but I'm a bottomless need bucket. Now I have a cabinet question.
My trailer has rounded corner cabinets. They needed to be refaced but the paneling cracked if we tried to bend it around the corners so we used an ultra thin veneer. It was applied with contact cement and looked lovely. One week later when I came back to stain it, it had "bubbled" (for lack of a better word) all over. It had not lifted on the edges but had big bubbles all over. My working partner thought it was because it hadn't been sealed yet and was taking on moisture. When we heated it, it went back down. I'm concerned that sealing it won't solve this problem. Anyone use this thin veneer? Any ideas? Again, thanks in advance for your collective wisdom.
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Post by dawgpound on Jan 13, 2013 9:27:24 GMT -5
I restore antique furniture and do quite a bit of veneer work. It sounds like it be one or more things that have happened.
There may have been thicker areas of contact cement. This is sometimes caused by brushing the cement. I like using CC rollers.
There may have been areas in the sub-straight that were loose. Any movement in the sub-straight can case air pockets to form in freshly set veneer using CC.
If the CC didn't pre-set correctly on both pieces (sub-straight & veneer) before being pressed together, the CC will continue to dry & create gasses, thus causing air pockets to form.
A hard swing in temperature can cause the CC to gas, thus causing air pockets or bubbling.
2 coats of CC should be always be used on both the veneer and the sub-straight. The use of only 1 coat, you will find areas that didn't get enough CC and this will cause that area not to bond correctly.
If you were using CC and real veneer without a backing, this will cause movement. When using CC for veneer work, the veneer should be "Paper Backed". If the veneer is "Wood Backed", such as a poplar backing, you should use "Cold Glue" such as any good wood glue.
Hope this helps.
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Post by swirlygirls on Jan 13, 2013 17:39:09 GMT -5
Ross, This helps a lot. We are using the veneer on wood backing (going over old, in bad shape cabinet) and the veneer is not paper backed. It sounds like that could be the problem. We should have used glue. Do you use a roller and put glue on both wood and backing? Now that we have the veneer on the wood with CC is this problem going to continue even after it's sealed with lacquer? Should we get the veneer off and try again using glue or would you advise against using the thin veneer in a trailer at all because of the extremes in temperature , sweating, etc. Thank you for your help. Now's the time to fix this.
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Post by dawgpound on Jan 15, 2013 9:30:31 GMT -5
I was out-of-town yesterday and just now checked this. There are a few manufacture of veneer and depending on the maker, will depend on how thick the backing is. If the veneer and backing is relatively rigid, CC will do fine, if it is flimsy, cold glue works much better. BUT when using cold glue, you should really press it, clamp it between 2 boards, to ensure it stays flat and even. I don't like using CC in an area with major temperature changes. Extreme heat will soften the CC and cause air bubbles and/or cause the CC to fail. I have a few friends that used CC to install headliners in their vintage trailers and a few weeks / months went by and they were having adhesion issues. One lives in New York and one lives in Florida. Where are you installing the veneer, just the cabinets? You could use PSA Veneer, which is Pressure Sensitive Veneer: www.rockler.com/product.cfm?page=2213OR Use Speed Tape, which is super sensitive adhesive tape designed just for veneer: www.fastcap.com/estore/pc/SpeedTape-17p310.htmI have a friend who uses this and swears by it. OR Use 1/8" birch plywood and reface all of the cabinets. This would be my first choice. Use wood glue and "press" or clamp the ply to the doors and drawer faces and a few small finishing nails to hold the side panels in place until the glue sets. I also sent you a PM.
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cowcharge
1K Post Member
I suffer from Shastasomiasis.
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Post by cowcharge on Jan 15, 2013 22:51:07 GMT -5
I'm suspicious of contact cement for wood because it's so rubbery, and it tends to get clumps in it because it's so sticky it's hard to get a thin, flat adhesive layer, especially since you have to coat both surfaces and let them set up before putting them together. I would think it would be really easy to end up with a rippled surface on thin veneer because of the irregular surface of the cement. I'd use wood glue. Someone at Home Depot recommended using CC for Formica and I wasn't keen on that either.
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Post by capnjonny on Jan 16, 2013 21:57:42 GMT -5
I do cabinet refacing as a business and when I reface a cabinet I make sure to use 1/4" domestic mfg. plywood for the end panels and paperback thin veneer for the face frames. The only contact adhesive I will use is 3M spray 90 in the big green can. I don't use 1/8" to veneer the cabinet faces because it is all made in China and there are lots of quality control issues with it. Sometimes the edges where the veneer pieces meet is not glued down. sometimes the veneer overlaps and isn't glued. It is practically impossible to detect until you spray lacquer on it and by then it is too late. Also the 1/8" Chinese plywood warps terribly and if you cut a long thin strip for the face frame it can lift at the ends. The 1/4" domestic plywood is much better that the equivilant Chinese product. If you are veneering with thin veneer and spray adhesive the work goes much faster. The glue dries in about 1 minute. Be careful not to let it dry too much or it won't stick . Test by touching the glue with your finger. it should feel tacky but not wet or dry. If you are going to veneer a large piece it is a good idea to place some dowels on the bottom piece spaced about 12" apart. Then you lay the top piece on the dowels and working from one end pull one dowel at a time pressing the veneer down as you go. Once the veneer is down you can take a rubber mallet and pound the veneer all over to make sure it is stuck down . If you don't have a mallet you can use a hammer and a piece of 3/4" plywood. If you manage to get an air bubble under the veneer try using a razor blade knife and cutting a small slit in the veneer say 1/34" long cutting with the grain then tapping the veneer down. If all else fails and you want to pull up the veneer it might come up if you do it immediately. A heat gun or hair dryer pointed as the point where the veneer is parting from the underlayment works . Also a putty knife worked into the place it is parting helps. If you are careful to position the veneer properly and lay it down carefully you will almost never have a problem.
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Post by swirlygirls on Jan 20, 2013 8:00:28 GMT -5
Thank you for your thoughtful responses. I thought I'd give you an update. The problem we were having was making the round curve on the cabinet corners. I love those round curves but the 1/8" was cracking when bent. (We tried several things but it still bent.) The person that's working on my trailer has extensive cabinet experience also (thank goodness) and we discussed options and your feedback. First I was wrong and the veneer IS paperbacked. We have refaced the cabinets with the 1/8" material but had to use the veneer on the round corners. We're currently having 100% humidity here in the form of freezing fog. The bubbling that had occurred previously was on an unsealed cabinet. We experimented by sealing a cabinet. we're using lacquer, and leaving it sit in an unheated damp shop where the temps got to 25 degrees with that high humidity. The cabinet held up perfectly. Here's a link to my journal for a couple photos: swirlygirls.livejournal.com/If after long term use there's any problem, I'll post it.
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vikx
3K Post Member
Posts: 3,556
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Post by vikx on Jan 21, 2013 13:55:10 GMT -5
Here's the shelf. Pretty! Attachments:
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